Hello and welcome to The Rebecca Saunders Show your place to discover how to build resilience, craft confidence and have a huge impact on the world. This podcast is for female business owners wanting the skills and knowledge they need to show up and stand out in a noisy digital world. Over the last decade, I've built a global seven figure production company and worked with organisations both big and small, to create impactful video content for business growth. I have a purpose built film studio in Sydney, Australia, where my team and I produce live virtual events. And I run my signature online programme the video accelerator twice a year to help make that scary video journey just that little bit easier. Recently, after 25 years of wearing a wig in public, I took my first step out into the world hair free, in a bold move to encourage confidence in front of the camera, and ownership of video uniqueness. Recently, after 25 years of wearing a wig in public, I took my first step out into the world hair-free in a bold move to encourage confidence in front of the camera, and ownership of individual uniqueness. Every week on this podcast you'll hear honest, insightful and practical conversations with successful business owners, entrepreneurs and video specialists, which will give you the tools and knowledge you need to step into your power on the small screen described by my clients as a video ninja. I'm your host Rebecca Saunders and I cannot wait to dive into this episode with you. Let's do it!

Today's guest is my wonderful friend Michelle Akhidenor, founder and CEO of leading Australian podcast agency the Peers Project. Launching in 2019, the Peers Project produces podcast for visionary brands from fortune 500 to national powerhouses. Key clients of Michelle's include Alibaba Group, Indeed.com, Shopify, Forever New, and Modi Bodi. Now her company and its podcasts have been featured in Mary Claire, Smart Company, AG News, BT and Mumbrella - and a hell of a lot more. And Michelle was recently shortlisted for the 2021 B&T 30 Under 30 Entrepreneur Award. But prior to founding the Peers Project, Michelle started global podcast Peers to Peers, where she continues to host conversations with some of the world's most inspiring millennial entrepreneurs. And in 2021, Shopify signed as a podcast major sponsor, I could think of no better person to help me kick off the Rebecca Saunders. Show them Michelle. And so today we're going to deep dive into why video and podcasting work so well together. 

Michelle, welcome to the show!

Hello, hello! Thank you so much for having me!

Thank you for being my number one live guest on the show, and on the podcast that we're doing as well.

Yay, honestly, thank you, Becca. It's so cool that you have a podcast now. And I can't believe we're here. And we're on the show. And it's all happening!

It is all happening. We've got the kit, we've got everything we're ready to go. Now, Michelle, I want to kick off. I know that I think your business has now hit five years, Is that about right? almost five or four?
Just hit four.

Yeah, I feel like I've known you so much longer. Tell me - take us back. Why did you start your Peers to Peers Podcast?

Such a great question. I love talking about the origins of the Peers Project. Really it all started with the Peers to Peers Podcast, which is now our company podcast that we run and I've been running since 2017. So for me, it really started out as my personal passion project. I was working in corporate and finance back in 2017, while still studying, and I just wanted that creative outlet - and to come up with something where I could connect with amazing young millennials, entrepreneurs who were super passionate about what they were doing. So I decided to start a podcast in 2017 when no one knew how to even listen to a podcast, let alone what it was and all of that. And so it really started there. And I just thought why not start this as a side hustle, side gig. And then slowly, slowly, it actually turned into my business, which is kind of what we do today, the Peers Project, all about podcasting and podcast production.

Amazing. Before we deep dive into that, because your clients are phenomenal and we've had a number of them in the studio in Sydney. You've interviewed so many incredible millennials on your podcast. It has been hundreds of episodes, Michelle. Who's been your top couple of guests that you've had on, and what have you learned through this journey of listening to other people's stories?

Ah, such a great question. It's funny because Becca, obviously you were one of my first guests. So how could I not say you? I mean, Oh, my goodness. But no we're almost 170 episodes in, it's been almost four years - I think it's so hard to choose who was the top. I would say just in general getting to interview some of these amazing entrepreneurs from not just in Oz, but also across the UK, the US and Asia, we did a London tour and a New York tour about two years ago, pre-COVID times. I think for me, it's really been about the breadth of the guests, everyone's from different industries. Yes, we're all young, but we're all so passionate and ambitious about what we're doing. I think for me, it's really been those episodes, and those interviews from those who don't live in Oz, and who lead different lives. The other week we had an amazing woman from Bangladesh come on the show, and she's just incredible, and what she's doing with her non-for-profit, all the way through to some of your biggest Forbes Under 30 in the US, the top favourite of mine is Nina's episode, the Day Girls in New York, and obviously their business is just incredible. I could go on and on, but I think it's really been the ability to connect with like minded people, and just talk about our entrepreneurial journeys, that's for me being the most special and reaching a global audience from almost the get go.

I know a lot of people I've been working with recently, I've just realised that the idea of virtual and video and podcasting is in that mix now as well. The reach you can get, not just sticking within your own country or your own city and the stories that you can learn and listen to, it's been pretty phenomenal. So off the back of that, I will touch on one of the big milestones of the podcast before moving on to the business. But Spotify coming on as one of your big, major sponsors on the show! How did it feel when that happened? Walk us through it.

Ah, Becca, you're getting all the best points, honestly, like, oh, my goodness, I still remember it was only about a year ago now less than two years, started this year. I was out for dinner actually, with a girlfriend and we were just having a wine. It was like a Tuesday night. I got the message, I got the email pop up on my phone, and it was from the amazing Robin, he's the head of marketing at Shopify, APAC, and him and I had been in discussions for a couple of months, end of last year, and it was just the email that kind of said, Yep, we're going to go ahead with the gold, you know, sponsorship, and, and we're so excited to be on board and that kind of thing. I remember I had a wine in hand and I literally, I almost dropped the glass, because I yelped in just joy. My girlfriend was like, what's just happened?  I couldn't believe it. I think you know, for at that point, at the start of this year, we've been doing this for three and a half years, you know, being out podcasting for three and a half years, as I mentioned, international tours, etc, etc. And also just, you know, the hustle, trying to find the guests and make it all work and keep the episodes rolling every single week for that period of time. For me personally, I've been hustling to try and lock in a sponsor and for sponsorship for about two years by that point - and it just seemed to be that the stars didn’t align before, but in this case, it did. I think just the feeling was a lot of gratitude, you know, feeling super grateful. Also feeling extremely excited for the new chapter of that podcast and for my baby, that little podcast that I started so long ago now. It was the best feeling and I guess it's something I tell my clients and our podcasters in our community it can happen and it does happen. My show our P2P show is about, it sounds like a lot of downloads, but 30 30,000 downloads so you're not looking at 2 million or something. To think that you'd get a big sponsor like that. So I guess I always say it is possible.

Anything is possible. Strive for it. I love it, it gives me goosebumps. I remember sending you bubbles in celebration of such a huge milestone in business because it's not easy to put yourself out there and really make that happen and have that traction on the world. So let's fast forward a little bit or even backtrack, depending on how we're looking at this story, launching the peers project. Michelle, you have some of the most incredible clients on your books. You're now considered one of Australia's leading, if not THE leading podcast agency. Tell us about that? How did you get such amazing brands on your roster as a new company?

Firstly, I have to say, Yes, thank you so much for the bubblies. And also I could not we could not do this without Pyrmont Studio and without Becca, let me just put that out there. The number of times I've called you, because we're in COVID, and I can't fly to Sydney with clients up there. As you mentioned, some big brand names that we have, and you just stepping in and always helping us out at the last minute with either studio hire, or even yourself, being our on site producer.

Becoming a podcast producer overnight.
I know, you do it so well! I'm always holding out for your own podcast. I just have to say I so appreciate the support. But how did it all come together? I’ll be super frank about my journey, although it may sound how it sounds, I'm super grateful where we've gotten to, it didn't start this way. You know, back in 2017, when I just started my little podcast, and I was hustling to try and get people to even come on as guests, I had this desire to ultimately start a business, but I didn't know what that business was going to be. So at the time my little my podcast Peers to Peers was actually called the Peers Project. So it all kind of started with this idea of it being a project, it being almost a business, but obviously didn't start out as that. And so you know, for the first kind of two years of running the podcast, you know, if 2017 through 2019, I was just hustling on the side, you know, I'd quit my corporate gig, I was back in Oz at the time, and I was just trying different businesses. You know, I tried a social media marketing company early, you know, late 2017, that ended up failing, you know, I tried a coaching business around kind of empowering my generation to step up and do what they're passionate about, and help them with kind of their career trajectories that ended up failing. You know, I think I was about on to my, my fourth or fifth business model and type of business before I came up with an idea for the Peers project and the agency that we have today. And so I always like to make that super clear, because sometimes people think, Oh, well, she must just be lucky that, you know, she hit the spot, and, you know, hit the nail on the head.

There’s a lot of lessons and failures along the way that people don't necessarily see.

Yeah, absolutely! I think, Becca, when you and I connected, even in 2018, I think it was, like I was still struggling through that process, and I remember looking at you and what you were doing with Deli agency at the time, and I was just like, this is incredible that, you know, you're able to build this and you were such an inspiration to me. So it's such an honour to be here with you today. Essentially, long story short, in 2019, after having all that most failures in business, I looked back and I thought, What's the one thing that I love to do? And it was the Peers to Peers podcast, it was podcasting. So I thought, Okay, great. Let's just start from scratch. Again, I love to do podcasting. I've grown to understand how to do it now pretty well. We've been doing it for two years, I've been doing my own podcast for two years, and I just thought, Well, why not? Try and see if I can actually gain some sponsorship for the show. So let's start there. Let's see if I can monetize this thing that I love so much. And so what happened was, that's when I actually started the sponsorship journey of Peers to Peers and I found myself in a meeting with a big brand name and I won’t mention who they were, they didn't end up becoming a client, but it's a big university here in Melbourne. And I was chatting with the CMO. I ended up somehow through all of my hustle, I ended up getting meetings with some pretty cool leaders and this guy was the CMO of this university and I was in this meeting, pitching my podcast to him. And I was explaining you know, like, this is everything. We've done it for two years, like you know, bah bah bah. And then at the end of the meeting, he said to me, this is awesome Michelle, like love all of this. But I want to do a podcast for our University. So can you do that for us? Like, I mean, you've done this, I'm sure it's similar.

Wow. And I remember just sitting in the meeting and I was like my heart was beating so fast because I'd never produced or done anything like that for anyone else. But you know, the hustler in major said yup no problem at all I can do that for you no issues you know, let me get back to you with a quote, walk away from that meeting have absolutely no idea how to start, you know start something for a brand just kind of figure it out.

Just say yes and we’ll figure it out.
Yeah, exactly. I mean how many times have we done that?
Every entrepreneur has done that on a daily basis.

On the daily, right?!
Yeah, yeah.

It was literally that meeting and that deal which ultimately didn't actually end up going through. But that was the moment that I realised the market opportunity. At that point, it was early 2019, people started to understand that they knew how to listen to a podcast now. The medium hadn't matured, it was becoming I wouldn't even say it was mainstream by then, but it was becoming a bit more known, and people knew what a podcast was, and they were interested in it from a marketing standpoint. So I just thought in that moment, that's what it's gonna be, it's gonna be a podcast agency, it's going to be called the Peers Project, and the podcast will still run Peers to Peers, but that will be our example to clients just like in this meeting, how it was for this specific client or prospective client, we'll use that. That's how the idea came about, within two months we'd rebranded the business, we relaunched the business and turned it into a podcast agency, specifically a podcast production agency. And within you know, six months from then we signed our biggest deal to start off with, which was our podcast for Forever New, the fashion retailer.

For those people that are listening outside of Australia Forever New is a big fashion retailer here in Australia correct?

Quite big!

How did it feel from there, you know, you're producing a podcast, one of Australia's biggest fashion labels, and then, you know, you're now working with Alibaba and Indeed.com. You've got some big organisations in your sights. So who do you look for to produce? I suppose not, who do you look for in terms of clients? But what are the underlying things in a client are you looking for before you go in and pitch a podcast to them? 

Such a great question. So I think really, that's changed over time. You know, in 2020, end of 2019, when we signed Forever New, I was pitching small businesses through to big retailers through to kind of tech companies, I was just pitching across the books, I didn't know what would stick to be honest with you, I ended up signing a couple of small business clients, and then Forever New, there was Modi Bodi at the same time, and then Forever New was our big kind of corporate retailer, client. So I think back then it was just anyone and everyone who wants to do a podcast who wants to try it out - now it’s very different. So now I think we've really found our niche in kind of big business. So big corporations, we've got a couple - I can't name what's coming up next year, but we've got a couple of others under our belt for next year, starting out next year. And it's really, those, I think the reason for big business is because with what we do the goal and mission is to impact as many diverse, amazing humans as we possibly can. And with big business, with the scale of the deals and the kind of the scale of the audience listening, you can really do that. For me, as a woman of colour, it's always been my dream to kind of produce podcasts and shows that showcase diverse stories and voices and try to do that and bring that to the masses. You know, for so long when I was growing up, I would watch the news or I would watch TV and I would never say anyone like me up there. You know, I just didn't say that. And so for me, I think it's always been this thing with me I didn't realise this until recently but where I don't want that to be the case for those amazing females and women of colour coming after me and, I want them to see people up on the screens and in the massive podcasts that you listen to on radio who are like us. So that's why big business because I truly believe that we can have that kind of impact with those kinds of clients.

I love that. And I love that the synergy between both missions there is an impact on the world - and for you, it's a diverse audience. For me, it's, stepping into the uniqueness of you to have that impact on the world and not shying away from who you are as an individual. So, it fills me with so we could go so far on that. But that's a whole different podcast, a whole different podcast Michelle, there are so many episodes, I'm sure. In terms of you know, we work very closely together you alluded to it earlier, I have jumped in and done podcast producing for you here in Sydney, during lockdowns across Australia, vice versa, you've done it for me video wise up in Melbourne when we've been able to. We have done collectively, you know, videos have been filmed for your podcast clients. And I want to deep dive into this because I've been in the video industry for a decade. This is my you know, starting a new journey with podcasting. We've known each other for years, and you've said to me for years, we should kick it off and start it. And I say to many of my clients get on the video journey, just get started. What started you, what tripped the wire, I guess, in terms of stepping up from just being audio to adding that visual element to your podcast with these clients? And what is the impact of that been for viewership and ROI for the client?

Such a great question. And honestly, massive, massive is what the answer is. I think it depends for the clients of ours that use video, it's aligned with their goals and vision. And so really, we decide whether we use video depending on really what the client's goal and outcome is. And a lot of the time that goal and outcome is more listeners, more people engaging with the content. And what we found, and I can speak specifically to Modi Bodi on this one, we do this in your studio, Becca. But what we found was that we can repurpose the podcast content we were already creating so all of the audio, we can repurpose that as video. And that then allows us to help to drive traffic to the audio. So essentially, what that means is that audio and video is really great at helping to drive eyeballs and traffic to your audio. And so you know whether it's a person on social media, and then you would know this way more than I would but you know, whether it's a post on social media, or a snippet, you know, we do these 30 second primary snippets of video versions of the podcast. And then we tell people to go listen to the audio. We also do obviously, the full length, and sometimes our clients have to put that up on their YouTube channel, or as an igtv on their Instagram. And so I think really, the goal is for these clients to maximise the impact to maximise the number of listings, number of downloads, number of views. And so in using video, we can help them to do that. And more and more so we find that clients are just wanting an element of video. Maybe it's not the entire thing filmed. Maybe it's just a snippet, or maybe it's a promo video. I mean, that's what we did for Forever New all of those years ago, we launched them a massive promotional video of kind of the setting of the production and all the beautiful clothes and whatnot. And that debuted their podcast and that helped bring in a lot of traffic. So yeah, I mean, I could speak to this for days, but you know, long story short, helps massively with the ROI.

And if you had you know, we're just starting out with a podcast we've got you know, someone that's just started with a podcast and wants to add those video elements in, you know, I talk around the difference between the places you can put DIY content. This is Case in point, you know, there is no crew behind us making this happen. They will shine it up when we finished, but they're not here making the production happen, versus bringing in the professionals to do that. What's your take on this because I know a lot of people through the pandemic's have been doing DIY podcasts, some top tips for people, kickstarting that?

Yeah, I love DIY podcasts. You know, we've got our really shiny polished massive brand client podcasts and studios. But then we are also huge proponents for podcasters, and just creating and starting from scratch. I mean, we literally have a course on this. I'm gonna make a plug here, but it's called Podcast Power 101. It’s an 8 week course, how to start and launch a podcast DIY, using the exact same setup I've got or Becca's got right now. Super easy. I mean, my sister literally launched her podcast off the back end. And her podcast is now doing super well, a lot of traction on social media. And that's a really low cost kind of option to kind of get you started. So I think top tips would be, I mean, number one, we're an audio. So it's a really great microphone, getting the right equipment, your right headset, right microphone and getting yourself set up in terms of your equipment. Very, very important. We also have a free guide, downloadable, or send this through to you, Becca, and you can link it in the show notes. Yep, perfect. A Guide downloadable, which actually gives away what that setup is for you to easily buy. Second tip I would say is it's making the commitment and sticking with it. Podcasting is and we've talked about this a lot in the course, but it's a long term game, and I'm sure video is as well. But it's that long term game where, you know, if you can't really just start with maybe one or two episodes, you can start with two episodes, but your audience and if you really want to build an audience, they're going to expect that consistent flow of new content of the new podcasts. And so it's getting committed and figuring out your why from the get go. Writing that up on your board, where you need to say it on your whiteboard, and just remembering why you're taking half an hour of your day, you know, every week to do a podcast or to record a podcast, so staying clear on that. 

And then the third thing I would just say is, and obviously we've got a lot of help in this in the course and in our free guides that is coming up with a basic plan and strategy to keep you accountable. You know, so mapping out, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to commit to a three month weekly series, however many episodes that is. I was thinking because we always do fortnightly for clients. I was like is that 6? 12 if it's weekly, and going, Okay, from the get go, that's how many I'm going to do I'm going to commit to for season one. And what's that going to look like? And how does that fit into my daily plans, my business, my weekly plans, whatever it may be.

Yeah, and those three tips there, you know, the number three is the one that I've been doing, right, it's the one where it's taken me a long time to figure out why we're making this show and what the impact of that's going to have on the audience. So being very clear on that vision and the accountability is huge. I know from my perspective, I booked everyone in for an interview. So it's not me just talking by myself. Yeah, I'm showing up being accountable to the people that are giving their time to me to be able to have these conversations, and that's the way that I've been able to do that. So thank you for sharing those top tips. And for those of you watching or listening, depending on what what platform you're on as we’re of producing this show, both as visual and as audio, what Michelle said there in terms of points, one in terms of the equipment, you know, I equally have a similar download in terms of how to do that from a video perspective. So I will put both of those in the show notes side by side, because whether you do one or the other, the equipment is definitely number one, and being consistent. So batch recording, I think is probably going to be my takeaway. Something that I'm definitely putting into play. 

Michelle, before I let you go, podcasting videoing, we're pre recording something right now. If we need to, we can just scrub it off. Start again. Something's gone wrong. We didn't like it. We don't put it out to the world. You've just recently launched your personal brand. And you have committed to going live once a week. 

Once a week.
How much of a shift is that for you going live and doing it solo? I haven't seen you do any interviews yet so you're doing it solo. I know that fills a lot of people with dread. Like for me, even myself. I struggled to jump on live just myself right? It's taken a long time for me to build that out. Well, tell me how's it feeling? How's it going? It's only been a few weeks. Yeah, but it's so different for you. Walk me through it.

Becca so different. And I mean, you know me so well. We're all about the batching of the content. You know, we run these things called production days and we pump out three to five podcasts in a day. I mean, you've been there with us. But going live going has been such a different approach. And I think in so many ways. It's made me really commit. I think it's what it's made me do. I think when you are able to pre record content, you have a schedule, that's flowing out live, you always have time to go. You know what, today I'm not feeling the best. I'm not going to show up to this podcast. Well, let's see if I can push this back an hour or to tomorrow. There's always that space to make a bit of an excuse or people reschedule on you and you're like, Oh, well, Oh, good. I'll do it next week. When you're going live obviously that's not the case, no matter if you've been crying that morning, you're struggling that day, you've got client work on, you're on a production, whatever it may be - making that commitment to your audience to show up every week. And for me, it's the Wednesday check ins, it's Wednesday lives, weekly lives, has been just that true commitment, I think to my personal brand. So yes, very excited for that. We're currently rolling out the brown campaign. So you guys can check us out there. It's @michakhidenor. My last name, I'm sure Becca will link it up somewhere because it's been a confusing one. But yeah, it's really just made me commit not only to my audience, but to myself. And I think that's been really, I feel a lot more connected to, to both really. So look, it hasn't been without its challenges, the other week we had it not going live. And then I was spending an extra hour when I have clients and whatever. But I think it just shows to your audience as well, how committed you are to helping them and serving them and being there for them. And that's really what MA Brand is all about. It's being there for one another, and for those of my peers out there, showing up and being that person that they can talk to.

Showing up, stepping out, standing out.

Amazing. I love it. I'm loving the journey. I love how this all integrates together, you and I have said before can deep dive into this so many times and we chat about it all the time. Even if we're catching up as friends, we deep dive into work related things. Michelle, before I let you go, I have two more questions. 

If you could leave our audience with one major key takeaway message if they just took one thing out of this conversation, what would you want them to know? 

Just start, get started, whether it's with video with podcasts, whether it's with your website, whatever it may be, just start. It gets easier as you keep going.

Oh, yeah, practice makes perfect. It's an oldie but a goodie. Michelle, thank you so much before we wrap the show, where can people find you?

Yeah, amazing. So firstly, Becca, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honour to debut your podcast. But people can find us at the Peers Project, pretty much everywhere on Instagram, on Facebook, on LinkedIn. I personally I mentioned my handle on Instagram already @michakhidenor where I'm rolling out my new brand and then also I'm highly active on LinkedIn. It's my secret social media. Yeah. It's just Michelle Akhidenor on LinkedIn.

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you Michelle - that's a wrap on another episode of the Rebecca Saunders show. Thank you so much for tuning in, thank you to Michelle for joining me. I really hope you've taken away some golden nuggets from today's show, and are one step closer to having a huge impact on the world. If you've loved this episode, please share it on Instagram and Facebook with your friends or on LinkedIn with your colleagues and business network. And if you've really liked to make my day you can pop a review on iTunes. If you have any questions about today's episode, come on over to Instagram for a chat. You can find me at the handle @therebeccasaunders. And if you'd like to know more about what I can do for you check me out at RebeccaSaunders.com. I'll see you next time on the Rebecca Saunders show.